Welcome, Ibrehem (6th Place)

I know :P But I didn't backstab, ever.
And it's not that I was lying, I was just with-holding certain tidbits of info

And for what it's worth, I remember Tom sent me and BJ this confessional that he -was- close to Mia, but when he saw she had the idol and we were all not budging he decided to vote with us and eliminate Mia.
And then he said that he had gotten "a lot" closer to Chad then he let on. This was after Chad's blindside.

Well i don't really believe that Tom played a great textbook winning kind of game, i was just pointing out how strong it was. I mean, after reading everything here last night, Chad and Mia were still fighting over who was closest to Tom over the other. Sure he backstabbed practically everyone....but i still give him at least a little pat on the back for how much control he had for most of the game.

I really would like to know in all honesty just what Tom's ideal moves for every round just to see if it all matched up. Im sure we will only really find that out though when we can view his confessional. You just know he will say everything he did was on point

Haha I don't think we were arguing that. Tom and I were definitely closest.

I know :P But I didn't backstab, ever.
And it's not that I was lying, I was just with-holding certain tidbits of info

And for what it's worth, I remember Tom sent me and BJ this confessional that he -was- close to Mia, but when he saw she had the idol and we were all not budging he decided to vote with us and eliminate Mia.
And then he said that he had gotten "a lot" closer to Chad then he let on. This was after Chad's blindside.

But who did Tom backstab? I mean I obviously don't know what he was saying to you in private.... But with BJ, he was with him 1000% to the end. He only turned on BJ when BJ started pulling crazy shit that I told him about. Tom was really upset too. Really upset. He thought he and BJ were F2 all the way. But I told Tom about the antics BJ pulled trying to get me to vote for Lisa instead of Jo and I told him I thought it was probably because BJ was teaming up with you guys and was trying to pick me up to use as a vote against him and the perceived Tom-Mia-Ami power alliance. Which was made clear by all of you later, that's exactly what you were doing. I mean BJ was sending me messages like I was his BFF and wanted to make sure that I was working with him and we had a "secret deal". It was clear he was turning against Tom. And when he lied to Tom and said that he voted out Jolanda, I showed Tom the PMs from BJ telling me the votes weren't there to get Jo out, but he managed to save me (that is my favorite story you guys would always come up with. I was going but you saved me at the last minute), and that if I voted Lisa I would be safe. That's why Tom turned on BJ. BJ turned on him first.

And I don't think he would have turned on Mia so early either if I hadn't told him that she was plotting to vote him out.

So in both of the instances of people he had a tight alliance with, they were backstabbing him first. Like I said... I obviously have no idea what he was saying to you and Jo. But all that crap you were telling me last Friday about how Tom had turned on BJ and was an ass to him was NOT TRUE. BJ threw the first punch and got caught. And I'm telling you Tom was really upset about it. BJ is a snake. I'm not even sure how much he told you about how he was trying to make that "secret deal" with me. Maybe he did... but I'm not so sure. When he first approached me with it, he made it seem like he was targeting you and Jo. That could have been bullshit. It probably was bullshit. But I thought that he was trying to see if I would agree to work with him so he could use me to sway things the way he wanted them to sway.

I agree with Chad here. Tom did what he could to stay in the game. Ami and I had talked about keeping Tom for a little while after we initially planed to vote him out, so we weren't immediately considering it at that point, but Chad was able to relay the info to Tom so Tom could act on it. Plus, like I said, Tom knew I wasn't playing my idol, so it just worked out perfectly with him.

Another thing I want to add is that based on what Tom told me, Tom NEVER had any intentions of going to the finals with Bobby Jon. He always told me it was me and him, of course, (I didn't put too much stock into it honestly, because F3 deals are only made to be broken later on, so I never made any), and we talked about how much he wanted to make sure a goat was there. Basically, his game was always 2 touch competitors and a goat.

But yeah, Tom only flipped to save himself when the power was shifting away from him. He's been in the majority of every vote, and aside from idols and the purple rock, I believe he voted for the person that went home every time. I don't think everyone else can say that, but I might be wrong. Tom played a decent game and only flipped to save himself. Unfortunately, right now he's looking like he did all the backstabbing.

Well, first thing after the merge he promised me, Jo and Gregg he wanted us to stay Choro to the end.
(Which for the record was decided on original Chorotega as well that whoever was left would stick together at the merge. That's why we were so pissed at Gregg for voting out Wanda and giving the numbers to John.)

We had NOTHING else to go on. We were hoping for that since we liked he, Kim and BJ.
That was when Tom was pushing for Caryn to go. I was really confused by that. I was kind of mad he wanted Caryn gone actually, but I didn't want to argue or risk anything.

Then Chris goes, Chris was with Tom I believe. Yet he voted for Chris, keeping up the illusion that it was Chorotega to the end.
Obviously, not the case. He turned on myself, Gregg and Jo (and Bobby Jon). I know BJ lied about voting for Jo. But I don't blame him when Tom seems to be the one calling the shots. After all, he did pretty much decide the first three merge boots. (Although voting for Chris was kind-of-sort-of my idea, Tom REALLY pushed for us to vote Chris) BJ lied to Tom because BJ knew Tom made us 3 a LEGIT PROMISE and then one episode later he takes out Jo (who BJ and I are obviously friends with) It wasn't just "vote original Chorotega with us, the end" we were all really, really discussing stuff so the Jo blindside was even more horrible than you guys thought because Tom and Kim had gone along with it so well. After that, the discussions between the 6 of us went from like all-day talking to just nothing.

Tom voted Jo out while they had a pact between the two of them, too. So I ended the one I had with him. I just couldn't trust him anymore. At all.
Next, he voted out Gregg. (still in tone with backstabbing me, jo, Gregg -- I mean, he made promises to both sides, I just don't see how that should be rewarded) Bobby Jon voted for Gregg only to try to make Tom feel he was with him and he didn't have to worry. Flipping then would've been really bad for his game. As for trying to get you to vote Lisa. He was trying to leave the votes in a tie. He didn't want Jo to go, we were really close and he knew Tom was voting for Jo (me, gregg, jo didn't) so that was why. He just didn't want Tom to take Jo out because Tom made us a deal and Tom/Jo had a pact. icon_rage

I would go as far as to say Kim was only riding Tom's coattails the whole game, actually. Next, he votes Mia. Which to us, we thought Mia and Tom were practically bffs. So that came as a total shock. Next, I figured Tom would just stick with me/kim/bj/chad. I didn't even talk to Tom hardly but I figured we were all voting for Ami, then we were voting for Tom because BJ told me he sent him that threatening message. And Chad, you were telling them we were voting for Tom, when actually I think we were going to change to Ami in the end. But because Ami told us you were telling their side stuff. We figured the cause of Tom going back on us was you(Chad). So that's why we voted for you. I guess you guys wouldn't understand but me and Jo were REALLY close to Gregg and BJ especially (more than Kim and Tom). At one point we kind of wanted our alliance to be BJ/Jo/Ibe. But the switch happened and we were like, whatever we like Gregg. That's why BJ went back on Tom, because he was going back on us in the first place. This is all Tom's fault.

So I guess you could say yeah BJ voted for Lisa/tried to get Chad to vote with us and went back on Tom but that was only because TOM was going back on Jo. And we were all really good friends.

Then Kim and Tom flipped back to Ami/Lisa/Chad side (which I actually predicted in one of my confessionals), even though I swear I remember BJ saying Tom and Kim wanted to vote Ami out. So, I was glad BJ played the idol. I didn't expect Tom and Kim to flip on BJ of all people.

After that Tom is all "yeah if Kim, you and BJ want to vote for Ami as Choro-4 I'll do it"
I was like oh good Tom will backstab someone yet again. :P
Then the votes tie because Tom wouldn't backstab Ami. (he was kind of backstabbing bj/kim/myself because he TOLD us he would vote with us if we all wanted to vote together as Choro-4, and we did and we told him we were) except this time they all vote for KIM(?). Tom's partner in crime. I was like Wtf? lol because Tom and Kim were always together. And in Kim's defense, the thought of targeting Tom never came up because Tom lied and said he was with us (once again).
I left, and yeah Tom targets BJ once I'm gone. Yay for Tom right? With me out of the picture?
*sees Ami, 5th place* lolnope.

BJ was just too good friends with me and Jo. Tom telling BJ and Kim to vote Jo out is how this all started. Because Tom's an ass who went back on us in the first place.

Him pushing to vote for Chris was because we wanted the idol flushed.*

Oh, right and when I ended my pact with Tom, I did it after the Jo vote, right before the Gregg vote when Tom told me he was voting Gregg out next.
And only because I ended the pact, Tom went crazy on me. It was like he wouldn't let me end it. Like, who the hell is he to get me to stay in it after voting out Jo and telling me to my face Gregg was going next? He was like "you're breaking our pact?" I'm like, "No, breaking it would be what you did to Jo. I'm ending this before you break it and vote for me after Gregg." Except guess who won back-to-back immunity's so Tom didn't get to?

And I really don't think Tom knew that I knew about his pact with Jo. He's just such a snake. I'm sticking up for BJ I guess because BJ stuck up for me/Jo after Tom went back on his promises. You guys are just eating up what Tom told you.

What Tom told me... and it could have been total bullshit, but after dealing with Tom, and dealing with BJ, I'm more inclined to believe Tom.... is that if BJ didn't want to vote Jo out, he didn't understand why he didn't just talk to him about it instead of trying to pull some kind of fast one on everyone. He said that he would have been willing to at least talk about it with him, and if BJ was really adamant about keeping Jo, he would have agreed to it. I told you he wasn't really 100% sold on the Jo boot when he and I first started talking in the first place. I think he was afraid of the Guatusos banding together and taking everyone else out. But after I told him I would work with him (AND BJ. BJ was part of the deal!!!) Tom seemed upset that instead of talking to him about it, BJ just turned on him. And he said that they discussed voting Jo out, and BJ agreed. He could have been totally bullshitting me, but he sounded genuinely upset about the whole thing.

We won't know until we see his confessionals.

As for the "pact" with Jo... I hate to say it, but a deal you make in the first 3 days of the game is most likely going to get broken at some point. I never put any stock in the pre-swap stuff and would never automatically assume that Ami or Chris or Mia was going to automatically work with me post-merge because we agreed to work together on like Day 2. A lot of stuff happens and there was a lot of time in between when we originally swapped and the merge. I really don't view that as some huge betrayal. But like I said.... I was not there for the private conversations you guys had, so I can't pass judgment on how and why you feel the way you do. I'm just offering an objective different view to things.

Why "pact"? It was a solid pact that Tom made. I'm telling you. Sure it was early but does that mean it never happened and doesn't matter?
If Jo sees this, I mean, spill everything Tom told you. :P
Okay, yeah I get you weren't there to see private conversations.

I honestly don't believe BJ would agree to vote out Jo. If anything BJ didn't trust Tom enough to discuss it because Tom was the one who decided to vote her out in the first place. (And if he would vote out Jo after making her promises, why not BJ himself?) It's not about them agreeing or not agreeing to do it, Tom made HUGE promises to us and went along with them like they were real. That's the point. And he was clearly playing both our sides here. And BJ stood up to Tom and Kim about it, (Kim didn't want to argue with Tom and risk it, ever) so, I have no choice really to side with anyone except BJ.

And like I said, there's really no stop to Tom's tyranny. In the F6 vote, who was the one person that sided with Tom until after the Chad boot when they finally stood up to him and realized he's incredibly disloyal? Kim. Yet, they vote for her? Over me? I hope he gets 4th, tbh.

The Kim vote at F6 was suggested by me to Tom. My theory was that it was "obvious" that Ibrehem was getting a few votes that evening, so if the three of us voted Kim, a potential idol being used would be wasted and at the very least it would be a tie.

It took one sentence from me to Tom to have him vote Kim

Did Kim outright tell him she wasn't going to vote with him? That Kim vote was really surprising to me.

Did Kim outright tell him she wasn't going to vote with him? That Kim vote was really surprising to me.

I think the basis of him sticking with me was that i convinced him that they would never take him to the end and Kim was actually planning on going with Ibe and Bj. He helped me with that argument when he said she felt bad about voting Bj at the f7. Also, it took a lot of Shit talking my own game to him so that he believed he could beat me over Kim who made the same moves, but never got an ounce of flak.

Yeah, Tom told us he wanted to go Choro-4 and vote Ami out but ONLY if me, Kim and BJ were for it.

Kim wasn't budging to vote for me, and decided it was the right thing to do to stand up to Tom (because BJ and I were constantly willing to stand up to Tom I guess, and she knew voting against BJ at the Chad boot was a mistake when Tom is the reason we're where we are in the first place )

So even after Tom knew the three of us were voting together (and we expected him to join us because we were obviously solid and he, you know, told us he would) he voted Kim anyway??

Well Ibe.... the three of you WOULD HAVE cut him next if Ami went. And the likelihood of Ami trying to get him out was probably a helluva lot smaller.

Well Ibe.... the three of you WOULD HAVE cut him next if Ami went. And the likelihood of Ami trying to get him out was probably a helluva lot smaller.

Yeah, that's true, but does he deserve better? After making us promise after promise and breaking them all?

Even though i knew how much Tom controlled the game, i was banking on the fact that the jury would hate him more than respect him. There was no way I would have voted him out

Yea. Everyone was like Tom is such a huge threat. He's actually the perfect goat as evidenced by all the Choro hate here.

Well Ibe.... the three of you WOULD HAVE cut him next if Ami went. And the likelihood of Ami trying to get him out was probably a helluva lot smaller.

Yeah, that's true, but does he deserve better? After making us promise after promise and breaking them all?

I guess I'm not understanding the whole "deserve" thing and why there is sooooo much hostility focused on Tom. A lot of people in the game lied their asses off if it meant they would get farther. But somehow Tom is like a pariah because he lied to people and broke deals.

You and I made two F4 deals. Did you intend to keep any of those? It doesn't sound like you were serious about the first one, because you are claiming you were Chorotega to the end and there were pacts and etc. But you tried to make a F4 deal with John and I on Guatuso. Because you knew that you were in danger. You most likely had no intention of keeping that. I certainly didn't.

Bobby Jon made a F4 deal with Mia and Chris, and then voted Chris out at the merge. So didn't he break his pacts, and words, and deals, and lie and backstab too? Couldn't one say he "deserves" to get screwed over because of what he did to Chris... and then Mia. As far as I know, Mia and Chris never went against him. If they did, they weren't telling me about it.

Everyone on Guatuso had multiple alliances and were backstabbing each other originally, but none of us are irate with each other. (The me and Mia thing was post-game stuff).

And there is a lot more.... A LOT more.

I mean I understand why it is personal when you are on the bad end of a broken deal. But to say that someone deserves something because they lied and backstabbed, when most people in the game have done the exact same thing, just seems a little silly. For some reason when Tom does it, there is outrage. I think that kind of says something about his character. People liked him and trusted him so they feel angry when he screwed them over, versus other people that weren't as likable or perceived as trustworthy. Doesn't that mean he was playing an excellent game and had everyone fooled?

This thread continues to deliver

Actually, when you and I made the F4 with Jolanda and John. We were going to go through with it -- until Brook told us you were hiding idol clues from us and everything went to hell, lol. The second time, well... YOU were the one who told Tom we were considering targeting him!

I would say BJ not going along with not voting for Chris was mine and Tom's fault. The Chris boot was really our idea. I don't think anyone else really said much about it. I thought of how exactly to split the vote, but Tom kept saying we should all vote for Chris. So, idk.

No, because he DIDN'T have me fooled. I voted against him every time after the Jo boot, but no one else would until after the Gregg boot. And by then it was mostly just Bobby Jon. I can't believe you guys aren't more mad, honestly. And I never backstabbed, I lost because I wouldn't backstab.
And his game was not excellent. I do think BJ got what he deserved. Two eliminations where he was --extremely-- close to leaving. Because Tom played the majority of you guys to vote for him. Why? Because he was the only one that would go against Tom and that includes the people that were sucking up to Tom. :P